Curse

Gabs88 · May 30, 2012, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Personally I always wanted the ability to pick formations with my heroes. ^^

Line, box, circle and so on.

Gill Halendt · May 30, 2012, 07:07 AM // 07:07

I've always wondered why:

- Foes scatter while in AoE / ADoT. In HM, they even tend to react immediately to such damage sources.
- Heroes on the other hand don't move at all and keep doing whatever they're doing until they're almost dead.

One simple workaround could be the prioritization of survival over continuity of operation just like foes, causing heroes to stop their non-essential actions and move away while in Guard/Avoid Combat modes.

I mean, how hard could it possibly be?

Rushin Roulette · May 30, 2012, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tullzinski

Looks like a wonderful idea and I would love not having to babysit the heroes during AOE attacks. BUT, ANET has already shown they cannot change the heroes without screwing them up. See the link in my other post.

As I said before no, until ANET can prove they will not break the game making what seemed to be a minor change.

A little negative are we?

How do you propose that Anet prove that they can change the behavior of Heroes without them changing anything? Seems to be a slight predicament you have set yourself there

.

Tullzinski · May 30, 2012, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette

A little negative are we?

How do you propose that Anet prove that they can change the behavior of Heroes without them changing anything? Seems to be a slight predicament you have set yourself there

.

No not a little negative, honest based on what ANET has done previously. Maybe ANET should test it before releasing on us, I know this is a radical concept

.

I like the suggestion however I do not think with everyone working on GW2 that it would be properly implemented and tested which would lead to result we saw back in march.

Relyk · May 30, 2012, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

I've always wondered why:

- Foes scatter while in AoE / ADoT. In HM, they even tend to react immediately to such damage sources.
- Heroes on the other hand don't move at all and keep doing whatever they're doing until they're almost dead.

One simple workaround could be the prioritization of survival over continuity of operation just like foes, causing heroes to stop their non-essential actions and move away while in Guard/Avoid Combat modes.

I mean, how hard could it possibly be?

Heroes should prioritize actions as the player would be the one to determine if the group needs to fall back or push. Anet implemented AI smartly in this respect.

**cosyfiep** · May 31, 2012, 12:29 AM // 00:29

yeah would be nice if heroes moved out a bit...and moved out of aoe, heck even FLAGGED far away they will stop and heal themselves instead of running (contrary to what they are told to do and what anet says they should do).

Gill Halendt · Jun 01, 2012, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relyk

Heroes should prioritize actions [...]. Anet implemented AI smartly in this respect.

Debatable.

Right now, prioritizing action often means dying en masse if heroes are balled up in AoE, which simply doesn't sound that smart to me.

Prioritization should be situational, if anything.

Whatway · Jun 01, 2012, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Highlander Of Alba

as the saying is.. it it aint broke why try to fix it...if no problems exist.

If it wasn't a problem, this topic wouldn't have come up as a suggestion. Positioning is a big deal; it makes or breaks many speedclears and allows you to do things with heroes & henchies you wouldn't be able to do otherwise.

Ayuhmii Shanbwa · Jun 01, 2012, 10:56 PM // 22:56

well, i dont have anything to do with SC's, but i sure can say (as a player who stays in GW, and wont move on to GW2) that heroes should be a lil more useful with flagging

maybe now that they focus much more on GW2, they could revert their thoughts about just 4 flags (stumme explained the reason why we dont have 7 flags), and give every hero its own flag after all

i mean, it cant hurt GW much anymore already, so in the future (from GW2's release date on) it does even less harm

i think each hero its own flag would do better than having group flag different positions
not only for them to code, but also for players to use more effectively

[OFFTOPIC]heck, maybe 11 heroes for deep and urgoz would be nice then.... but thats a different topic[/OFFTOPIC]

besides, they have changed their minds so many times now, that GW is just going to be a game for fun in the future, instead of balance (maybe except for pvp), so making hero-flagging more effectively wont hurt GW anymore if thats the case

Cuilan · Jun 02, 2012, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Heroes are already considered efficient. You even said you like playing with people, so I would think you would be suggesting ways to improve finding people fasters. Apart of playing with people is some will scatter right away and others you'll have to teach.

Premium Unleaded · Jun 02, 2012, 02:01 AM // 02:01

I would say it's ironic that while one of the annoying problems with positional AI is reacting to aoe/scatter, they more often than not are still better at responding to it correctly than the average pug.

Highlander Of Alba · Jun 02, 2012, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whatway

If it wasn't a problem, this topic wouldn't have come up as a suggestion. Positioning is a big deal; it makes or breaks many speedclears and allows you to do things with heroes & henchies you wouldn't be able to do otherwise.

Just posting to answer this quote

There is nothing needing done by your post quoting myself the main post should read ...Speedclear positioning for heros.

The heros can handle any part of the game wether it be NM or HM in any situation if you have the correct builds,

Is it because there will be an exodus of players leaving fo GW2 hence so guys will not have there teams for speedclear?

Sorry to post this reply but to say they it allows you do do things your existing builds cant do at present.That seems to your thought the above is the only thing.

Whatway · Jun 02, 2012, 01:58 PM // 13:58

You misread. I am not suggesting using heroes for speedclears. I am using speedclears as an example of how important positioning can be. Heroes do some dumb things when you're trying to flag them around in combat, much of which can be mitigated by the option for formation presets. Better AI to actually follow directions would be great too, but probably too much to ask for at this stage of the game.

FinishOffGWone · Jun 02, 2012, 05:29 PM // 17:29

/signed

because unlike most retards who didnt sign this, i undertsand if you wanna play with real players go for it, if ur like me and cant stand real players of now days, this would/could work, but i'd rather 7 flags, and option of 11 heroes at Urgoz and a fix to the deep for heroes to be taken considering both are so dead...and @akelarumi no shit its hard to find a PUG group and its even harder to find a good/smart one, and @Relyk"You use to be able to get scatter effect by flagging heroes back slightly and unflagging when you engage. The update caused heroes to queue moving to formation around you before initiating scattering behavior. I don't really care about flagging formations when programming kiting and scattering behavior would make for smarter AI instead of pushing it on to the player. This is like trying to put a band-aid on the problem." i agree 100%, theres also nothing worse then 1 melee breaks through to your backline and ur trying to target it, but your caster hero is running non stop, around you, into aggro, instead of staying behind you...Arena net has always made heroes Slightly more worse

anyway a 7 hero flag system, a fix to AI and ability to use PvE only skills (since heroes are PvE ONLY) would fix heroes...

Monk hero AI=Spam healing even when it's not needed
any hero healer AI=heal minions(necro doesnt take BoM for nothing, or isn't designed as a jagged bomber for nothing)
caster heroes=Run away and dont stop to cast damage each second there being hit by physical or any damage source, but love to stand in AoE, move out for 2 secs and stand back in it
Physical heroes=trying to bail away froma fight when there health gets a tad bit to low for there taste(wich has caused aggro to wreak havoc on back lines manytimes)
Sin heroes=slow chain with dagger attacks, very bad at using there skill's properly to utilise the best of there effects
Dervish heroes=very bad at using there snares
Paragon heroes=(nothing bad to say, mine do what there meant to)
ranger heroes=bad at using beast master skill's

pretty much, Paragons are the only heroes that dont do soemthing AI wise to annoy me, if they do mess up..then it usually my fault anyway)

MithranArkanere · Jun 02, 2012, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Heroes should be a bit better, but not much more than than they are.

I did most things with heroes, so it must be possible for most people, as long as they unlock some decent skills.

It's true that there's less people, but ZQuests still work to gather people to do things in HM, and in NM the current heroes have no problems.

They are just slower than HM enemies when it comes to getting out AoEs, and well, that should not happen. They might move slower than the sped up HM enemies, but should react as fast or even faster than them to AoEs.

That's my only pet peeve as with they are right now, since I don't like to control them with the flag to make them get out AoEs faster, and sometimes you want to get out all but one, and that one didn't get a flag because you wanted to give them to others you'll need to position and... it gets annoying.

Relyk · Jun 03, 2012, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Debatable.

Right now, prioritizing action often means dying en masse if heroes are balled up in AoE, which simply doesn't sound that smart to me.

Prioritization should be situational, if anything.

I was speaking in general terms, not one specific situation where they react poorly to AoE. The hero priorities isn't the problem with them standing in AoE, it's their unresponsiveness, the same behavior as enemies. Don't confuse the two. A majority of the time, you can avoid this from happening as a player. I don't see why Anet should compensate for players making poor tactical decisions such as preventing and avoiding the entire party getting hit by AoE. Sure you can make heroes immediately kite out of AoE, but I'd rather punish players for making such mistakes than compensate them.

Gill Halendt · Jun 03, 2012, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relyk

The hero priorities isn't the problem with them standing in AoE, it's their unresponsiveness, the same behavior as enemies.

Unresponsiveness comes from debatable priorities: just as an example, healers will stand in ADoT - the only type of AoE that should cause them to scatter, but doesn't - trying to outheal damage on the whole party before even considering about moving, instead of completing any urgent healing, move away from peril and then do their stuff from a safer spot. Foes don't behave like that at all, they scatter almost istantly.

Sure, you can force this reaction by flagging them away, but I really don't get why heroes can't do that by themselves, at least while in Guard mode. If we can't get formations, tuning reactions and differentiating the various Combat Modes would help.

lorazcyk · Jun 04, 2012, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Wow, so much off-topic. Can we talk about the original suggestion? And possible solutions here: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedb..._to_each_other
I'm not talking about implementing huge changes like smarter hero AI, or changing anything about how their little brains work, all I'm asking for is for their position to be different. Only have to change position (x and y position relative to player).
That's all.

If my suggestion is not clear or needs improving let me know how so I can fix it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Heroes are already considered efficient. You even said you like playing with people, so I would think you would be suggesting ways to improve finding people fasters.

I already said that lately I'm playing odd-hours where barely anyone is on (because they're sleeping or at work/school) or doing week-old Zaishen quests which no one cares about anymore (because I didn't have time to do it when it was the day for it).
Currently I ask in Embark Beach (sometimes Kamadan) if anyone wants to join me before I start.
Also like I said other casual players might simply not have time to wait for a PUG. For example if you are a university student playing between two classes.

Quote:

A majority of the time, you can avoid this from happening as a player. I don't see why Anet should compensate for players making poor tactical decisions such as preventing and avoiding the entire party getting hit by AoE. Sure you can make heroes immediately kite out of AoE, but I'd rather punish players for making such mistakes than compensate them.

Maybe I have old hands? Yes, I'm not very coordinated anymore and don't react very fast. Maybe my hands don't move as fast as yours do. I don't have fast moving fingers/reflexes like a 14 year old FPS player.
So for me when doing a mission or vanquish all this flagging and unflagging can easily make it take 45 minutes longer than it should. I can see flagging once in a while, for example when encountering a boss like Molotov Rocktail. But for every single mob? It gets old fast, instead of flagging because you are a "strong tactical player", you start flagging "because it's a boring chore that must be done nonetheless"